I also loved the bootleg episode and thought it was genius.

Also, I am gonna watch Horse Apples again and see if I like it now. I may have let my expectations get the better of me when it was first aired. If I did I will publically take back every bad word I said about horse apples.

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"Now Him, I want you to-"
"My name is Cyber-Him"
What? It's Him!
"Cyber-Him"
"It's Him!"
"Toby"
"Who's Toby"
"Technologically Owesome Bionical Yardslave"

Surly Bob:

Patience was brilliant and original. The entire Season 1 was the most hardcore thing ever to appear on American TV, and the first 2 episodes of Season 2 seemed to show WS still going strong. However..

I was afraid that WS jumped the shark after that lameass "Middle America" shit, and now they've taken the most lame and derivitive joke they've ever made on WS (Horse Apples) and turned it into a whole episode. Anyone who suspected that they were out of material when they came up with the idea of a "bootleg episode" is feeling pretty crappy, right about now. I know I am. Gone, apparently is the subversive chaos of Season 1 and the first couple of Season 2 episodes. The new order is southern jokes, catchphrases and constant self-reference. In other words, the same shit you see on every other "comedy show" on TV.

If you thought Horse Apples was funny, then you might be a mindless fanboi.

Oh yeah, and before you mental giants inform me that I simply don't "get it", I *do* get it - Wonder Showzen has sold out.

I'll quote maynard from tool:

"I sold out long before you ever even heard my name"

The most holier-than-thou thing to ever say is that someone sold out. So eat your own intellectual vomit and stop pretending like you're on the inside looking out.

If you think you know what the creators of a TV show are really up to, you might be a loveless sad sack internet junkie with his dick in his hand.

Surly Bob:

morrise18:

I can see why some people wouldn't like the Horse Apples episode, but
I'll be damned if I am gonna watch you criticize the bootleg
episode.  And another thing, could everyone stop using the word
"subversive" to describe Wonder Showzen.  David Cross used that
word on his site and ever since everyone uses it to make themselves
sound intellectual.  The bootleg episode was probably the
cleverest idea the writers ever came up with.   I

It was clever, but hardly original. Self-reference is a clear sign that a TV show has jumped the shark. WS never referenced itself before like it did in the "bootleg episode". It was a funny episode, but it was funny like other funny things on TV. WS used to be really different, and I'm seeing that disappearing. :(

Or maybe, just maybe, after 15 episodes, you've just kinda gotten used to it?

Moron.

I didn't know that there was another season of Wonder Showzen and since I stay away from anything mtv unless it is Wonder Showzen I missed just about all of the 2nd Season except for this one and the bootleg episode.  I didn't know anything about the earlier episode with Horse Apples and I still really don't know about it.  This really fucked with my head though cause I wasn't even sure it was Wonder Showzen at first.  After a couple of view of this episode it made me really how smart the guys at PFFR really are.  This is like Southpark and the "Cartman's mom is a dirty slut" incident. Many people think the episode that was aired in place of that was the worst South Park episode ever.  I personally don't think there is a worst episode of Wonder Showzen.  Whenever someone tells me to name the worst of something I like I always have problems doing it.  This episode did have me really confused at first though.

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I'll show you how official midgets jack me off

nubles:

this forum appears to be made up of elitist comedy snobs and mtv generation 'tards. Except for Only3Penguins, he seems pretty nice/intelligent and i agree with him completely about this episode. quickly everyone, respond with insults

Thank you for the compliment, nubles.  And I have to agree about the make-up of this forum, too, particularly the "elitist comedy snobs" comment.  I totally understand how some people could have really liked the Horse Apples episode--I still have yet to watch it a second time so I'm not passing total judgment on it yet--but the people who are making it out to be leaps and bounds above all other episodes of Wonder Showzen come off as a little... I dunno, "out of it."  Especially one person who basically said something to the effect that Horse Apples was awesome precisely BECAUSE it was the "exact opposite" of Wonder Showzen, which seems to me like it was meant to imply that normal "Wonder Showzen (Chauncey, Clarence, Beat Kids, etc.) is crap in comparison to Horse Apples.  What's that person doing watching Wonder Showzen in the first place?

The fact of the matter is Horse Apples in "Science" worked fine, especially once you realized there was some sort of PAY-OFF to the whole thing, in the form of the focus group segment, much in the same way there was some degree of pay-off to the otherwise-annoying second act of "Patience, "in the form of little backmasked bits, and the whole super-fast third act.  If it had just been the first act in reverse all the way up to the end credits, with nothing more added, people would have had every reason to be annoyed with the episode.  Getting back to the matter at hand, bringing Horse Apples back to Beat Kids in "Science," incorporating the Horse Apples segment into the established Wonder Showzen setting, is what made it work for us in the end.  But a whole entire episode of Horse Apples was overkill, in the same way an entire episode of Beat Kids or Clarence would be overkill.

Also, of course, most of us here, and most of the people watching Wonder Showzen, are probably children of the 1980s at the earliest, predating Hee Haw, so the humor may also have been lost on some of the regular viewers, whereas most of us are plenty familiar with Sesame Street and other children's programming, which is the format Wonder Showzen normally follows.  Hell, I only know what Hee-Haw is because I looked into it after Simpsons parodied it years ago.

Also, to the person who's bashing self-referential humor, I don't really think it's a sign that a show is jumping the shark.  It seems to me like it's just more of a common trend in contemporary comedy shows in general to poke fun at itself.  And anyway Wonder Showzen is a show whose characters know it's a show, that they're on TV; they've always broken the fourth wall and directly addressed the viewer.  So you should at least find the self-referential humor a little less jarring on Wonder Showzen than you would on a show whose characters don't know it's a show.

Filthy-mouthed puppets are the backbone of society.

---

What are you running from?

I actually like Horse Apples. Probably because I know people exactly like them.

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"No good opera plot can be sensible, for people do not sing when they are feeling sensible."
~W. H. Auden

Only3Penguins:

but the people who are making it out to be leaps and bounds above all other episodes of Wonder Showzen come off as a little... I dunno, "out of it."

I've read the whole thread, no one said anything like that. Straw man argument. -1 point.

Only3Penguins:

Especially one person who basically said something to the effect that Horse Apples was awesome precisely BECAUSE it was the "exact opposite" of Wonder Showzen, which seems to me like it was meant to imply that normal "Wonder Showzen (Chauncey, Clarence, Beat Kids, etc.) is crap in comparison to Horse Apples.  What's that person doing watching Wonder Showzen in the first place?

Again, no one ever said that. You're making things up in order to knock them down, thereby creating the illusion that you are right and they are wrong, when in fact you created the both the instigation and negation. Typical use is found in politics and news, but it is just as baseless and without merit here.

Only3Penguins:

The fact of the matter is Horse Apples in "Science" worked fine, especially once you realized there was some sort of PAY-OFF to the whole thing, in the form of the focus group segment, much in the same way there was some degree of pay-off to the otherwise-annoying second act of "Patience, "in the form of little backmasked bits, and the whole super-fast third act.  If it had just been the first act in reverse all the way up to the end credits, with nothing more added, people would have had every reason to be annoyed with the episode.  Getting back to the matter at hand, bringing Horse Apples back to Beat Kids in "Science," incorporating the Horse Apples segment into the established Wonder Showzen setting, is what made it work for us in the end.  But a whole entire episode of Horse Apples was overkill, in the same way an entire episode of Beat Kids or Clarence would be overkill.

You use the phrase "fact of the matter" as if you are the one who created it or are the final judge of what and is not fact. Neither of these are true, so of course your entire statement is then rendered fallacious. Again, this is a typical propaganda technique and is easily dismissed as such. I will repeat what I have said in previous posts in regards to the rest of your paragraph: Wonder Showzen is often not about making you laugh, its about making you think. You must cease to think of it solely as entertainment, or even that its first and primary goal is to BE entertainment, THEN you will have the capacity to truly appreciate it.

Only3Penguins:

Also, of course, most of us here, and most of the people watching Wonder Showzen, are probably children of the 1980s at the earliest, predating Hee Haw, so the humor may also have been lost on some of the regular viewers, whereas most of us are plenty familiar with Sesame Street and other children's programming, which is the format Wonder Showzen normally follows.  Hell, I only know what Hee-Haw is because I looked into it after Simpsons parodied it years ago.

Lack of exposure is no excuse. If you are such a fan, I'd think you'd want to educate yourself to be able to understand what they do. But if you'd rather remain ignorant, that's your choice I suppose.

Only3Penguins:

Also, to the person who's bashing self-referential humor, I don't really think it's a sign that a show is jumping the shark.  It seems to me like it's just more of a common trend in contemporary comedy shows in general to poke fun at itself. And anyway Wonder Showzen is a show whose characters know it's a show, that they're on TV; they've always broken the fourth wall and directly addressed the viewer.  So you should at least find the self-referential humor a little less jarring on Wonder Showzen than you would on a show whose characters don't know it's a show.

Finally, I agree with you.

Only3Penguins:

But a whole entire episode of Horse Apples was overkill, in the same way an entire episode of Beat Kids or Clarence would be overkill.

I would also like to point out that the very next episode WAS an entire episode of Clarence, and you defended it. Does that make you a mindless fanboi, a flip-flopper when it is convenient, or just plain wrong?

Cheers mate!

u know, the fact that they never showed the mathematics episode makes me think, it was pulled at the last minute and they had to show horse apples instead, which was just going to be a DVD extra originally.

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I told you numbers are shmarta!

P-ness:

u know, the fact that they never showed the mathematics episode makes me think, it was pulled at the last minute and they had to show horse apples instead, which was just going to be a DVD extra originally.

 

you know, that makes alot of sense, the horse apples "episode" just screams dvd extra, i could see it on a menu.  But now i guess i'll have to hope the Mathematics episode will instead be the dvd extra, giving us something brand new in essence when we buy the dvd!  Then again what do i know? With all the surprises Showzen is known for, anything could happen with anything, i would be unphased either way because i am so used to the shock factor that runs through anything and everything having to do with the show

Carlos Mencia is a self-hating Latino. He is also a right-wing bigot....boo! I think that giving him a show was one of the worst mistakes Comedy Central has made since giving Colin Quinn his own. If I wanted racial humor, I'd watch Chappelle. He does it in way that's actually funny! Wonder Showzen does it the best however.....way left of the mark!

I thought the Middle America episode was hilarious. What's better than an obvious shot at conservatives using a talking map of the red states from the 2004 election and making it sound suspiciously like Dubya? If you don't think that episode was funny, you might have a hair across your ass because you live in a red state, but I think it is more likely that you don't get the point of making fun of right-wingers. Tsk tsk!!! Watch Henry Rollins on IFC......or read!!! Also, if whoever wrote that is a Republican/conservative/fascist, why are you wasting our time listening to your opinions? Go watch Mencia, dumbass! This show is for fierce liberal/progressives who don't carry cards and aren't bashful about trashing what deserves to be trashed! I tip my hat to left-wing victories in 2006 and 2008 and also to the creators of my favorite show, Wonder Showzen! Keep getting away with murder, guys!